TYPE 214 SUB VS AMUR 1650 SUB A Layman's analysis

[DrSomnath999]

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1.INTRODUCTION


AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE
• It is a new 4th gen diesel electric ,export version submarine which is have been laid down at the Admiralteiskiye Verfi
state-owned shipyard in St. Petersburg.Designed to destroy hostile submarines and surface ships, to protect friendly naval bases, seacoast and communications, as well as to carry out reconnaissance missions.

TYPE 214 SUBMARINE
• The Type 214 is a diesel-electric submarine developed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW). It features diesel propulsion with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system using Siemens polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) hydrogen fuel cells. The Type 214 submarine is derived from the Type 212, but as an export variant it lacks some of the classified technologies of its smaller predecessor.

It is well equipped to undertake a wide scope of missions ranging from operations in littoral waters to ocean-going patrols. The modular weapon and sensor mix, in combination with the submarine's air-independent features, makes the Class 214 predestined for
•anti-surface ship and anti-submarine operations
•intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance tasks
•Special Forces operations.
Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH


2.SIZE

AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE
• surface displacement: 1765 m³ /1,675 tons
• Submerged displacement:2500-2600 m³/2,800 tons
• length: 66.8 m
• pressure hull diameter: 7.1 m
• Height :8.2m
http://www.ckb-rubin.ru/fileadmin/ed...r_1650_eng.pdf
Amur / Lada Class - Project 677

TYPE 214 SUBMARINE

• surface displacement:1,690 t (surface)
• Submerged displacement:1,860 t (Submerged)
• length: 213 feet 3 inches (65 m)
• pressure hull diameter: 20 feet 8 inches (6.3 m)
• Height :19 feet 8 inches (6 m)
Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Scorpene vs T-212 vs T-214

so amur 1650 is considerably larger sub than type 214 sub

3.PERFORMANCE

AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE
• Speed:19 kts (submerged)
• Diving depth:300m-(maximum)
• Range: (AIP) 300 -500 nm
:(snorkel),4000 -6000nm
http://www.ckb-rubin.ru/fileadmin/ed...r_1650_eng.pdf
Amur / Lada Class - Project 677

TYPE 214 SUBMARINE

• Speed:20 kt submerged / fuel cells: 2-6 kt estimated
• Diving depth: more than 250 m officially, 400 m estimated
• Range: 420 nmi @ 8 kt (780 km @ 15 km/h) submerged
: 1,248 nmi @ 4 kt (2,310 km @ 7 km/h) fuel cells
Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so type 214 has much better performance in terms of range & speed & DIVING DEPTH as compare to AMUR 1650 SUB

4.STRUCTURE



AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE

•Amur 1650 is a single-hull, single-shaft submarine with two reserve propulsors.

•The submarine has a solid hull made of unique highstrength steel alloys,

•According to Rubin, the ship features a new efficient antisonar coating of the hull new generation “Molniya” (“Lightning”).

•The submarine hull also has a new multi-layered rubber cover providing almost complete absorption of own noises
generated by submarine mechanisms, and sonar echo signals.

• The submarine, its propulsion plant, machinery and weapons systems can be controlled either from the main control room or from separate battle stations.

http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/navy/navy_10-14.pdf
http://spsnavalforces.net/ebook/21032011.pdf
Russian Military Forces | Aviation | Navy | Infantry firearms | Communications | Ground systems | Weapon photogallery


TYPE 214 SUBMARINE

•Type 214 is a single hull,& made up of HY-80/HY-100 High Tensile steel

•A hull shape, which has been further optimised for hydrodynamic and stealth characteristics, and a low-noise propeller combine to decrease the submarine's acoustic signature.

U212 / U214 - Naval Technology

well structurally both are built keeping stealth as top priority in construction ,but AMUR 1650 external structure coating is better compare to type 214 ,while Type 214 hull sectioning & shaping are more stealth optimized than AMUR 1650 .


5.PROPULSION



AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE

• The submarine's propulsion system integrates two diesel generators, a main electric propulsion motor, two air independent propulsion (AIP) systems and a single shaft driving on a skewed seven-bladed propeller

• An Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system based on oxygen-hydrogen fuel cells is being offered for Amur-class submarines as option to achieve extended immersion endurance.


• The new diesel-electric propulsion system is arranged in a modular compartment which can be plugged into the basic submarine. A radio electronic equipment of a new generation, variable-speed permanent-magnet propulsion motor and storage battery with increased service life are provided to the 4th generation Russian non-nuclear submarine.


Project 677 Lada Class / Project 1650 Amur Class Submarines - Naval Technology
Amur 1650
Amur / Lada Class - Project 677

TYPE 214 SUBMARINE

• In the current design, propulsion is provided by two MTU 16 V 396 engines (2,000 kW) serving a 600-900 V propulsion battery with a fully integrated auxiliary AIP system based on two PEM (polymer electrolyte membrane ) 120 kW fuel cell modules.

• The propulsion motor is a Siemens Permasyn (type FR6439-3900 KW) low-speed permanently excited electric motor driving a Low-noise, skewback 7- blade propeller.
Hellenic U214 pics (Greek Turkish Affairs Forum)
Scorpene vs T-212 vs T-214

• It has an electrical propulsion system based on a silver oxide and aluminium battery.

well TYPE 214 SUBMARINE has much better propulsion than AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE thanks to it's better & efficient AIP system although both have skewed seven-bladed propeller .

[DrSomnath999]

6.AIP SYSTEM (POWER SUPPLY)


AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE

• The provision is made for the boat to be fitted with an air-independent propulsion plant with electrochemical generators to considerably increase submerged endurance and cruising range. The plant with stock of reagents is located in a special compartment module, which can be incorporated into the submarine during construction or repair / refit.

ЦКБ МТ Ð**убин: Amur 1650

•. According to estimates, Kristall-27E AIP system will increase the Amur Class submarines' submerged endurance by 15 to 45 days (the longer endurance is ensured by a short-term operation of the diesel engine in the snorkeling mode).

•The Kristall-27E AIP plant, featuring the intermetallid storage of hydrogen, cryogenic storage of oxygen and low-temperature electrochemical generator with alkali matrix electrolyte, fully meets all requirements including those of fire/detonation safety, and can beat the AIP system of Project 212 submarines, surpassing it in terms of fuel efficiency and shore-based support facilities due to the availability of dedicated autonomous shore-based refueling complex.

•The shore-based refueling complex does not integrally belong to the AIP system. However, it can be supplied optionally: this feature contributes to the competitiveness of the Russian project. Customer will receive in a single package the autonomous refueling complex which will provide hydrogen and oxygen for the submarine's AIP system in peace and war time
Military Parade Issue 29 (Sep.-Oct. '98)
Kristall AIP Submarine an Alternative

RECENT UPDATES

•TsKB Rubin is testing an AIP generator for submarines, RIAN reported in Sep 13 according to Rubin's Gen Director Andrey Dyachkov. He criticized the German hydrogen elements for flammability of their storage. The currently developed Russian AIP is built on the same electro-chemical generation principle, as hydrogen elements, but uses different less flammable reagents. The chemical ingredients used in the new AIP are not disclosed however. Like foreign analogs the last Russian AIP is built in plug-in module. Dyachkov also said Rubin is working in parallel to improve the lithium-ion batteries for subs. Currently the installation of lithium-ion batteries allows to make underwater time longer on 40%, while it's only 35-40% of the theoretically limits of this technology.
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TYPE 214 SUBMARINE
• Performance of the AIP system has been increased withtwo Siemens PEM fuel cells which produce 120kW per module

• In Type 214 submarines the two BZM 120 fuel cell modules are connected to the ship’s power system via a DC/DC converter
allowing adaptation of the fuel cell power plant to different battery voltage levels .This becomes
important in retrofit projects in which an integrated fuel cell system, consisting of the fuel cells, oxygen and hydrogen
storage tanks, control system, process equipment and product water tanks,is integrated into an already existing submarine during a major overhaul.

• These service proven components completely satisfy military specification requirements with respect to magnetic signature,
low electrical stray field characteristics, system safety standards, acoustic properties, and shock/vibration criteria.
http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/intern...0Symposium.pdf

• Endurance: 3 weeks without snorkeling, 12 weeks overall
Using the AIP system on submerged patrol and intercept missions enables the boat to remain submerged for up to 13 days at a speed of 4 kt. Submerged sprint speeds of between 16 and 20+ kt are possible for periods of a few hours several times during a 50 day mission. At a speed of 6 kt the mission range is almost 12,000 n miles. Endurance will be 84 days.The fuel cell works at an operating temperature of 70 to 80ºC, which makes the submarine difficult to detect using external heat sensors.

Hellenic U214 pics (Greek Turkish Affairs Forum)

Regarding AIP system TYPE 214 SUBMARINE has a better Siemens PEM fuel cells(BZM 120)AIP system which give sub much more endurance days & energy efficient AIP system as compare to AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE's Kristall-27E AIP system.But russian AIP systems are claimed to be more safer as compare to german AIP system as they use less flammable reagents as claimed by russians.Russians are now currently working & developing 3rd gen AIP system which can give them nearly 90 days endurance
Military Parade Issue 29 (Sep.-Oct. '98)



7.SENSOR SYSTEMS



AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE
(I)SONARS:
• The sonar system comprises highly sensitive passive transducers and electronic equipment, which make it possible to detect even low-noise submarines and surface ships at long ranges. The submarine carries a towed transducer, which is dispensed from the top vertical tail fin.
Russian Military Forces | Aviation | Navy | Infantry firearms | Communications | Ground systems | Weapon photogallery

• The sonar complex is outfitted with a highly sensitive passive array, the area of which exceeds the area of array on the previous generation submarines by several times.
Amur 1650

• Technology has been developed and mastered for installation of a quasi-conformal (abutting to the hull of the submarine) antenna of “LIRA” sonar system;The Lira sonar system with quasi-conformal (abutting the hull of the submarine) antenna can detect low-noise targets located at long ranges.
Admiralty Shipyards - AMUR Submarine
Project 677 Lada Class / Project 1650 Amur Class Submarines - Naval Technology


(II)ELECTRONICs :
• The radar system is equipped with passive and active antennas arranged on the non-penetrating mast. The radar system furnishes surface situation data, detects and classifies targets, as well as generates targeting and IFF data.

• The commander’s periscope has two channels: optical and TV. A multipurpose periscope (optronic mast) is of a non- penetrating type. It has a thermal imager and a laser range finder. The boat’s communications facilities provide for reliable communication, both underwater and on the surface, with shore-based installations, ships and aircraft.
Russian Military Forces | Aviation | Navy | Infantry firearms | Communications | Ground systems | Weapon photogallery

• Submarine and its weapons are efficiently controlled by automated command and control system with operators’ consoles in the main control room. The system provides highspeed sensor data exchange, processing,analysis, and presentation of
the integrated information on operators’panels.

• The onboard inertial navigation system ensures safe navigation and determination of submarine motion parameters with
precision required for missile employment.
http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/navy/navy_10-14.pdf

• The submarine is fitted with Litiy automated combat control system. The integrated system controls the combat and technical systems of the submarine.
Project 677 Lada Class / Project 1650 Amur Class Submarines - Naval Technology

• The countermeasures are provided by the electronic support measures (ESM) system, radar warning receiver and direction finder.

• Accordingly, the Amur 1650’s communications system is equipped to pick up command and information messages at a depth of up to 100 meters.

TYPE 214 SUBMARINE
(I)SONARS:
• The sonar suite CSU 90 (DBQS-40FTC) includes following types of sonar:
* cylindrical array (CAH) for medium frequency passive detection
* FAS-3-1 flank array sonar for low/medium-frequency detection
* thin line towed array (TAS) for low frequencies in a medium self-noise environment (fitted for)
* passive ranging sonar PRS-3-15 for calculation of target data
* active sonar (CTA) , for determination of target range and bearing.
* Intercept array sonar for detection of active emissions of surface ships.
* The active high-frequency mine detection sonar (MAS) is the MOA 3070.

(II)ELECTRONICs :
• The command, sensor and weapon control outfit comprises the STN ATLAS Elektronik ISUS 90-15 system upgraded to provide increased low frequency detection range.

• It has SPHINX-D with 4Kw pulse and tactical LPI radar sensor by Thales Defence Deutschland GmbH in Kiel. It uses an additional pulse transmitter in the top of the mast.The radar sensor is a FMCW transceiver which can't be detected by ESM systems in medium terms. This technology is so called LPI radar, which means "Low probability of intercept". The transmitting power is lower than the power of a mobile phone but the resolution more precise compared to high power Pulse radar. Thales SPHINX radar is a tactical radar, designed for submarines.
Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


• It is equipped with an attack periscope, an electro-optic mast OMS-100 (both manufactured by Zeiss) . The optronic mast will be equipped by thermal camera , laser range finder and low lightness TV (LLLTV) .

Periscopes: Carl Zeiss SERO 14, with FLIR and optical rangefinder
Carl Zeiss SERO 15, with laser rangefinder

• Decoys:TAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures system

A consortium led by STN ATLAS Elektronik and Allied Signal ELAC is responsible for the development of the TAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures system. TAU 2000 has four launch containers, each with up to ten discharge tubes equipped with effectors. The effectors are small underwater vehicles, similar in appearance to a torpedo. The effectors are jammers and decoys with hydrophones and acoustic emitters. Multiple effectors are deployed in order to counter torpedoes in re-attack mode.In the occasion of upcoming torpedo 3 jammers and 2 decoys will be fired from the system.
Scorpene vs T-212 vs T-214
Hellenic U214 pics (Greek Turkish Affairs Forum)
Cakra 401 SubMarine: U212 / U214 Attack Submarines

• ESM:TIMNEX II(Elbit)
Elbit Systems' TIMNEX submarine ESM/ELINT system is an advanced tactical & intelligence gathering system. The unique receiver technology offers excellent sensitivity to detect, analyze, identify and counter a full spectrum of sophisticated emitters in extremely dense electromagnetic environments.

Hellenic U214 pics (Greek Turkish Affairs Forum)
Elbit

• Other systems include inertial platform, attitude and heading reference equipment, EM-log, echo-sounder and GPS. All sensors and weapons are controlled via five multipurpose consoles of the ISUS 90-15.
Hellenic U214 pics (Greek Turkish Affairs Forum)

well regarding sensor system ,here TYPE 214 SUBMARINE has a clear edge over AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE. As TYPE 214 SUB's sonar suite CSU 90 (DBQS-40FTC) is technologically highly superior to AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE's LIRA sonar system .
TYPE 214 SUB's SPHINX-D with 4Kw pulse and tactical LPI radar sensor is a cutting edge technolgy .& also addition TAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures system & Electronic Support Measures :TIMNEX II(Elbit)adds more teeth to it's capabilty .
SO here AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE is completly overwhelmed TYPE 214 SUBMARINE









8.CREW CAPACITY & PROVISION



AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE

• Crew: 35

• The submarine design takes into account the ecological requirements. Provision is made for installing the equipment used to clean bilge water from oil products, decontamination of wastewater, briquetting of rubbish and food cans, as well as
crushing of garbage.

• The submarine’s crew is accommodated in comfortable cabins. The boat has a dinette, pantry, air-conditioners, air cleaners and regenerators.

Russian Military Forces | Aviation | Navy | Infantry firearms | Communications | Ground systems | Weapon photogallery

TYPE 214 SUBMARINE
• Crew:
27 (including five officers)

• The Type 214 can carry food, fresh water and fuel for 84 days of operation.
Cakra 401 SubMarine: U212 / U214 Attack Submarines
Hellenic U214 pics (Greek Turkish Affairs Forum)
Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well TYPE 214 SUBMARINE has less crew members compare to AMUR 1650 SUb & both have almost same comfort & provisions .Well one can only point out 19-20 difference between the two on this ground .



9.FIRE POWER



AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE
• The boat is distinguished by the capability of firing up to 6 missiles in a salvo from all Torpedo Tubes at the bow against sea and fixed land targets state-of-the-art electronic warfare systems and a sonar with a unique passive antenna to detect silent targets at a large range.

ЦКБ МТ Ð**убин: Amur 1650

•These ships may be fitted with [B][COLOR="red"]vertical launch missile silos if customer demanded
Amur 1650

• The submarine’s armament includes multipurpose torpedoes, antisubmarine rocket-assisted torpedoes, cruise missiles and mines.
Russian Military Forces | Aviation | Navy | Infantry firearms | Communications | Ground systems | Weapon photogallery

• TORPEDOES: It has 6 x 533mm torpedo launchers/tubes & can carry 18 TORPEDOES (533)
i)VA-111 Shkval supercavitating torpedoes. They are capable of speeds in excess of 200 knots
All current versions are believed to be fitted only with conventional explosive warheads,
Range: Around 7 km to 13 km (new version).
Diesel-Electric Torpedo Submarine 677 Lada/1650 Amur class
VA-111 Shkval - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

• MISSILES : i)Brahmos supersonic AsCM/LACM ,
range:290km either tube launched (most likely) or vertical launched on demand
Flight altitude: Sea-skimming as low as 10 m (30 feet)
speed:Mach 2.8-3.0
Warhead: 300 kg Conventional semi-armour-piercing

ii)Klub S AsCM/LACM/ anti submarine missile (91RE1 / 91RE2)
range: 275-300 km tube launched
Flight altitude:10-15 m
speed:0.8-2.5-2.9 mach flies at subsonic speeds while going supersonic as it nears its target.
Warhead:Conventional semi-armour-piercing



• MINES : PMK-2 ANTI-SUBMARINE MINE SYSTEM
The caliber of the PMK-2 weapon is 533 mm and its length is not more than 6 m. The distinguishing feature of these systems is that though they are basically active mines, they attack targets themselves. The equipment of these mine systems detects and classifies an underwater target, determines its course and running depth, optimizes the target intercept trajectory and generates a command to launch either a rocket, which runs at a speed of about 80 m/s, or torpedo.
Sea Mines

TYPE 214 SUBMARINE
• It has 8 x 533mm torpedo tubes & All tubes can launch torpedoes and four are configured with weapon expulsion system supporting missiles.
Type 214 Submarine

• TORPEDOES: SEEHECHT ( Sea Hake )/DM2A4 mod 4 Torpedo (With eight torpedoes positioned ready & total payload of 16.)
It features an advanced electrical propulsion system and a fiber optic cable for torpedo guidance and communication, which, in conjunction with advanced signals processing and mission logic, makes the torpedo largely countermeasure resistant.
The DM2A4/SeaHake mod 4 is the first torpedo ever to be guided by a fiber optic wire.
The weapon has a modular design that includes up to four silver zinc battery modules and is able to achieve a range of more than 50 km (27 nm) and a speed exceeding 92.6 km/h (50 kt) powered by a high frequency permanent magnet motor, with a closed-loop cooling system independent from the environment.
DM2A4 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The DM2A4 differs to an appreciable degree from the predecessor model, the DM2A3. The innovations include the extremely powerful electrical propulsion system, the control and data transmission via fibre-optic instead of copper cable, the replacement of the mechanical gyro by a strap-down system using fibre-optic gyros, and the wake homing sensors.
defence.professionals | defpro.com

• MISSILES : i)IDAS short-range missile
IDAS (Interactive Defence and Attack System for Submarines) is a short-range missile currently being developed for the new Type 212 submarine class of the German Navy.IDAS (based on the IRIS-T air-to-air missile) is primarily targeted against air threats, such as ASW helicopters, but also against small or medium-sized surface vessels or coastal land targets. IDAS will be fibre-optic guided and officially has a range of approx. 20 km. Four missiles will fit in one torpedo tube, stored in a magazine.
The IDAS system is also the world's first missile which gives submarines the capability to engage air threats whilst submerged, and the first tube-launched missile that does not emerge in a capsule, but is fired directly from the torpedo tubes.
IDAS (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.europeansecurityanddefenc...k_ESD_0308.pdf

ii) Sub harpoon

Harpoon is an all-weather, over-the-horizon, anti-ship missile system, the UGM-84, fitted with a solid-fuel rocket booster and encapsulated in a container to enable submerged launch through a torpedo tube
•Range : RGM/UGM-84D (Block 1C): 140 km (75 nmi)
•Speed: High subsonic, around 850 km/h (460 knots, 240 m/s, or 530 mph)
•Guidance: Sea-skimming cruise monitored by radar altimeter, active radar terminal homing
•Warhead: 221 kilograms (490 lb), penetration high-explosive blast
Type 214

• MINES :24 external naval mines (optional)

AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE has a advantage of supersonic ANTISHIP cruise missile /LACM likes of brahmos over TYPE 214 SUB & that too at capabilty of firing SIX missiles in a salvo,while it gives an extra option Of VLS capability too on demand of customer.While Type 214 sub lacks an effective antiship cruise/lacm having sub sonic SUB HARPOON missile & it can only do that with 4 tubes While AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE has 18 torpedoes capabilty & TYPE 214 SUB has 16 torpedoes capabilty while skhval torpedoes are more faster & has less range compare to DM2A4 mod 4 Torpedo so advantage nullified for amur 1650 sub against TYPE 214 SUB.While mines capabilty AMUR 1650 has the advantage ,but one thing that clearly gives TYPE 214 SUB a unique capabilty is the ability to launch to engage air threats whilst submerged, and to have the first tube-launched missile that does not emerge in a capsule, but is fired directly from the torpedo tubes through IDAS missile, which AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE doesnt have .

SO overall AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE has more fire power than TYPE 214 SUB thanks to brahmos missile & also with VLS capability on
demand by customer














10.STEALTH



AMUR 1650 SUBMARINE

• The low noise level of the submarine’s equipment and systemic utilization of advanced acoustic protection facilities provide for reduction of the noise level produced by Amur-1650 by several times than that of other submarines of this class.
Russian Military Forces | Aviation | Navy | Infantry firearms | Communications | Ground systems | Weapon photogallery

• A new technology has been introduced for application of the anti-sonar coating of the new generation “Molniya” (“Lightning”).

Admiralty Shipyards - AMUR Submarine

• The AIP system based on oxygen / hydrogen fuel cells increases the Lada Class submerged endurance from 15 to 45 days. It also reduces noise by avoiding the need for frequent battery recharge by diesel generators.

• An anechoic tile coating on the outer hull reduces noise & a skewed seven-bladed propeller.
http://army.russiansabroad.com/detai...etail=amur1650

• According to Russian reports, it is one of the most quiet and lethal submarines ever built.



TYPE 214 SUBMARINE

• A hull shape, which has been further optimised for hydrodynamic and stealth characteristics, and a low-noise propeller combine to decrease the submarine's acoustic signature.Thus, the hull design and its hydrodynamic form emphasise stealth capabilities, offering good low signature features including both self-generated noise and flow noise and magnetic signature.

U212 / U214 - Naval Technology
Hellenic U214 pics (Greek Turkish Affairs Forum)


• The propelling power is provided by a seven-blade Skew-Back propeller whose extremely low rotation speed prevents cavity and which gener**ates thrust silently even at high speeds.

• SPHINX Radar System is a FMCW transceiver which can't be detected by ESM systems in medium terms. This technology is so called LPI radar, which means "Low probability of intercept". The transmitting power is lower than the power of a mobile phone but the resolution more precise compared to high power Pulse radar. Thales SPHINX radar is a tactical radar, designed for submarines.


• A submarine that uses fuel cells rather than a diesel engine to recharge its batteries produces much less sound while doing and consequently the effective detection range of many of the current passive acoustic sonobuoys is reduced.
Using the Siemens PEM fuel cells enabled AIP system the Type 214 sub on submerged patrol and intercept missions enables the boat to remain submerged for up to 13 days at a speed of 4 kt. Submerged sprint speeds of between 16 and 20+ kt are possible for periods of a few hours several times during a 50 day mission. At a speed of 6 kt the mission range is almost 12,000 n miles. Endurance will be 84 days.The fuel cell works at an operating temperature of 70 to 80ºC, which makes the submarine difficult to detect using external heat sensors.

so both sub are designed specifically bearing in stealth in mind ,while AMUR 1650 SUB has better suface coating & materials
while TYPE 214 SUB has better AIP & LPI sphinx radar along with stealthy hull cross section & shaping which gives Type 214
a edge over amur 1650 in terms of stealth .




CONCLUSION

Well before jumping into conclusion we should take into consideration those negative points which are alleged against TYPE 214 SUBMARINE like
1. Hellenic navy reported many problems
* instability while traveling on the surface, the boat rolls excessively in bad weather.
* Attack periscope vibrates at speeds greater than 3 knots;
* The air-independent propulsion system has lower output power than specified; the unit must be shut down after several hours of sailing due to higher than normal operating temperatures;
* Increased propeller cavitations;
* Seawater leakage into hydraulic systems;
* Problems with the proper function of the flank arrays.
Navy League of the United States - Citizens in Support of the Sea Services
well one may argue that these are deliberate tactics by greece which had bankrupt economy & couldnt afford to procure such sub so that to avoid payment for these subs by giving these excuses.But irony is korea also had some similar problems but
majority of them have been resolved .
? ?? ' ?' - 1 ??
While these problems in the South Korean Type 214s have been reportedly resolved, the noise level has yet to be reduced as promised by HDW. The company was fined $4.1 million by DAPA in February 2008 for ongoing technical problems. In November, a South Korean National Assembly demanded price reductions for the remaining six submarines, arguing that HDW was using the South Korean market to correct faults in the Type 214 to increase the submarine's overall international export potential. It is uncertain if DAPA received a price reduction for the fourth unit when it was contracted to DSME.
Seapower - February 2008.
But all in all many problems in TYPE 214 has been resolved .

LAYMAN'S REPORT CARD


So one can clearly see that TYPE 214 sub excels in allmost all department in comparision to AMUR 1650 sub, leaving aside certain few departments .
Well clear advantage AMUR 1650 SUB has over TYPE 214 sub is
* SIZE
* FIRE POWER (BRAHMOS MISSILE)
* VLS CAPABILITY

Well that criteria is also going to be overcomed as HDW has started development of TYPE 216 SUB to fullfill the criteria of
INDIAN NAVY's PROJECT 75 I programme




TYPE 216 SUB


EXTRA FEATURES

• Bigger size Length: 89 m; Breadth: 8.1 m ;Maximum Draft: 6.6 m

• Double hull design.

• AIP system enabled which gives it endurance of 80 days same as nuclear sub

• Vertical Launch System (2.5 m diameter to deploy cruise missiles or UUV)

• Swimmer Delivery Vehicle (SDV) to deploy special forces

Type 216 / U-216 Conventional Submarine SSK
Submariners World: German - Type 216 / U-216 Conventional Submarine (SSK)

Well India can also make provision to have brahmos fitted into TYPE 216 also ,and later it can also be armed with NIRBHAY Sub launched LACM missile.So with all the extra features & correction of almost all faults from TYPE 214 sub , HDW's next
gen TYPE 216 SUB looks the best eligible contender for INDIAN NAVY's PROJECT 75 I programme.

FROM THE AUTHOR:
I had tried my level best to present & give as much accurate information on both the subs i could find .Well
after all this is a layman's analysis not professional so mistakes can also happen ,& i would welcome all ur views & suggestion if i am wrong on any grounds.
I hope everyone would like & appreciate my hard work & most importantly distinguish which SUB suits our future defence needs


THANK U

[Sancho]

At least you used more sources in this comparison, although some people will take wiki and forums not as reliable once. I don't think the size will be a factor for IN, as long as the performance is good. If the bigger sub performs better, they will prefer it, but more important will be the fire power when AIP propulsion is included, since AIP is a prime requirement and that would reject Brahmos VLS, since you can have only them or AIP. The Amur would still have the advantage, since it would use Club S missiles, while the Germans can hardly offer something comparable.
However, that competition might be a long shot and too less is known about what IN really wants.

[DrSomnath999]

At least you used more sources in this comparison, although some people will take wiki and forums not as reliable once.

Original Post By Sancho

thanks bro
WELL i could post all the links if u want

I don't think the size will be a factor for IN, as long as the performance is good. If the bigger sub performs better, they will prefer it, but more important will be the fire power when AIP propulsion is included, since AIP is a prime requirement and that would reject Brahmos VLS, since you can have only them or AIP.

Original Post By Sancho

no u are wrong AMUR 950 has provision for AIP along with vls but amur 1250 doesnt has provision for VLS system,
ЦКБ МТ Ð**убин: Amur 950

The Amur would still have the advantage, since it would use Club S missiles, while the Germans can hardly offer something comparable.

Original Post By Sancho

well india should opt for VLS system and most probabaly they would opt for BRAHMOS missile & later they could fit it with NIRBHAY
lacm missile

However, that competition might be a long shot and too less is known about what IN really wants.

Original Post By Sancho

hmm thats why i posted this thread as after MMRCA deal this is the next hot topic for debate

[Rehan123]

Just for knowledge sake, how does the Japanese Soryu class submarines compare to either of these subs? There is little literature I could find about the Soryu class but quite a few posters on Australian sites were of the opinion that the Soryu class would be a good candidate for their Sea 1000 submarine program, some even outright claiming the Soryu class to be better than Type 216. I feel that this is germane to the topic at hand as Japan lifted its arms export restrictions recently. Would some of the more knowledgeable and better informed member provide some information please...

[jagjitnatt]

U214 is a downgraded version of the U-212, and the sub we are looking forward to is going to be the upgraded version of the U-212, so no doubt, the new sub will kill the competition hands down.

[DrSomnath999]

U214 is a downgraded version of the U-212, and the sub we are looking forward to is going to be the upgraded version of the U-212, so no doubt, the new sub will kill the competition hands down.

Original Post By jagjitnatt

well actually one has a misconception that U 214 is a downgraded version of the U-212 as given in wikipedia but it is an upgraded
version actually becoz it's AIP is claimed to be better .& type 216 is a more advanced version of type 214 so it is in the vested
interested of INDIA to go for type 216 submarine

[jagjitnatt]

well actually one has a misconception that U 214 is a downgraded version of the U-212 as given in wikipedia but it is an upgraded
version actually becoz it's AIP is claimed to be better .& type 216 is a more advanced version of type 214 so it is in the vested
interested of INDIA to go for type 216 submarine

Original Post By DrSomnath999

No mate. U-212 is more advanced. It is not available for export. This is the version that the Germans operate. U-214 is the export version, it is less expensive, and it is available for purchase. U-214 is bigger, but less dangerous. It can not run off AIP completely, whereas U-212 can run off AIP completely with diesel engines switched off. U212 being smaller, quieter is harder to detect. Since its smaller, and more appropriately shaped, it can dive to much greater depths.

U-216 would be the upgraded version of U-212. Like the U212, it should be small too, and that would allow it to have a completely silent profile.

[DrSomnath999]

No mate. U-212 is more advanced. It is not available for export. This is the version that the Germans operate. U-214 is the export version, it is less expensive, and it is available for purchase. U-214 is bigger, but less dangerous. It can not run off AIP completely, whereas U-212 can run off AIP completely with diesel engines switched off. U212 being smaller, quieter is harder to detect. Since its smaller, and more appropriately shaped, it can dive to much greater depths.

Original Post By jagjitnatt

Hmm what thing is exactly more advanced in type 212 is still secret & not avaiable for export is still classified for security reasons
but regarding AIP this link would give u an excellent info
http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/intern...0Symposium.pdf
also this site says a whole different thing about TYPE 214 as claimed by u
Scorpene vs T-212 vs T-214
U212 / U214 - Naval Technology

U-216 would be the upgraded version of U-212. Like the U212, it should be small too, and that would allow it to have a completely silent profile.

Original Post By jagjitnatt

lol it woukl be larger & with VLS capabilty

TYPE 216 SUB


EXTRA FEATURES

• Bigger size Length: 89 m; Breadth: 8.1 m ;Maximum Draft: 6.6 m

• Double hull design.

• AIP system enabled which gives it endurance of 80 days same as nuclear sub

• Vertical Launch System (2.5 m diameter to deploy cruise missiles or UUV)

• Swimmer Delivery Vehicle (SDV) to deploy special forces

Type 216 / U-216 Conventional Submarine SSK
Submariners World: German - Type 216 / U-216 Conventional Submarine (SSK)

[DrSomnath999]

Just for knowledge sake, how does the Japanese Soryu class submarines compare to either of these subs? There is little literature I could find about the Soryu class but quite a few posters on Australian sites were of the opinion that the Soryu class would be a good candidate for their Sea 1000 submarine program, some even outright claiming the Soryu class to be better than Type 216. I feel that this is germane to the topic at hand as Japan lifted its arms export restrictions recently. Would some of the more knowledgeable and better informed member provide some information please...

Original Post By Rehan123

sorry i have no idea about Japanese Soryu class submarines plz do google it as i am too azy to answer ur question

[Rehan123]

sorry i have no idea about Japanese Soryu class submarines plz do google it as i am too azy to answer ur question

Original Post By DrSomnath999

No worries. Tried google before that earlier post but couldn't find much. It seems nobody has much of a clue regarding the Soryu class or even modern Japanese warships beyond the most basic details. It's probably because Japanese weapons were banned from export till recently, so no one was interested enough to dig into them and provide analysis.

[Manmohan Yadav]

DrSomnath999 i will respond once i finish reading your post, will need some time.

[Ved Mishra]

what's the proposal from DCNS? I read they are offering bigger Scorpenes with MESMA AIP. How does it compare to the Amur 1650 and U 212/214/216?

[DrSomnath999]

DrSomnath999 i will respond once i finish reading your post, will need some time.

Original Post By Manmohan Yadav

u r free to take ur time buddy as u very well know this kind of thread is time taking to make ,so u should also take some time for
reading it ,but i assure this article is indeed worth of ur time .Well i am not flattering myself but ......????

[DrSomnath999]

what's the proposal from DCNS? I read they are offering bigger Scorpenes with MESMA AIP. How does it compare to the Amur 1650 and U 212/214/216?

Original Post By Ved Mishra

well i think india wont go for a repeat of scorpene deal for project 75 I ,well definitely TYPE 216 is going to be a more advanced
platform as compare to all it's competitors well type 214 sub i wont prefer